Joint interview with Johann Wadephul, Federal Minister for Foreign Affairs, and Nathanael Liminski, Minister for Federal, European and International Affairs and the Media of Land North Rhine-Westphalia, for the General-Anzeiger Bonn newspaper

Question:

Mr Wadephul, Mr Liminski, you have several meetings in and around Bonn today. How have you been managing to get through the traffic – blue lights flashing?

Johann Wadephul:

No, we haven’t needed the blue lights at all. We’ve been getting through really well. Compared with Berlin, it’s the good life over here, unstressful and relaxed. I understand better now why many people argued for keeping the federal capital in Bonn back in the day – because everything’s within better reach here, and Berlin is admittedly an insatiable beast.

Nathanael Liminski:

(laughing) If we need another powerful testimonial pleading for Bonn as a second centre of federal power, there it is! And that is how many people describe their experience of working here for federal authorities or international organisations. Putting aside the current closure of the North Bridge motorway, which is undeniably onerous, the infrastructure here is in general very sound. In a time shaped by a pandemic, by war and energy crises, with security and resilience once again hard imperatives, we would have to come up with just such a second centre of power if we didn’t already have one in Bonn.

Question:

What things need to improve in Bonn, in your view?

Liminski:

The city is already in very good shape. Bonn is a highly popular conference venue, with good reason. There’s a climate conference going on here right now – though not that anyone would notice, as these things are managed without any sort of fuss in Bonn. For the big conferences, we need more capacity, or at least temporary solutions such as were set up in Rheinaue Park for the UN Climate Change Conference in 2017. I also believe there is still room for improvement when it comes to permanently hosting major international organisations.

Question:

What do you mean by that specifically?

Liminski:

In terms of mobility, schools and childcare, we need to make sure that capacities keep pace and the good will of the city is not eroded. To that end, it is so important that we maintain close cooperation between the federal, Land and local levels, as we have been doing for the relocation of parts of the UNDP (United Nations Development Programme). This will grow ever smoother with practice; we already have suitable formats in place and are working under the leadership of the Federal Foreign Office on an updated attractiveness strategy with development potential. I believe that our cooperation on this is now healthier than it used to be.

Wadephul:

We do indeed have excellent collaboration going on – not least thanks to your own dedication, Nathanael, as a real driver of that cooperation. For us, speaking as foreign minister, the UN campus in Bonn is extremely important. We’ve been able to reinforce it lately because there were good arguments in favour of Bonn, but we do of course want to build on that. The world needs understanding, the world needs multilateralism, and to that end it needs places where people come together. We have a real asset in Bonn in that respect, and we jointly intend, as Team Germany, to promote it widely.

Question:

Are there specific plans for new UN organisations to establish premises here?

Liminski:

Regarding the establishment of more UN organisations’ premises, it is crucial that Operation UNDP goes well. We’re well on the way as far as that is concerned. Not only the federal and Land authorities but also the city and Mayor Guido Déus are putting their backs into it. UN representatives from New York tell me that the resettlement is going well and that they really notice how welcome they are. They say that will resonate very widely. Establishing 300 employees of a key UN unit here is something that other UN organisations will take note of.

Question:

What about conferences?

Liminski:

When it comes to day-to-day conference business, I believe we are well set up. The question is whether there will be another major climate conference or similar like COP 23 in 2017. Such conferences have become so large that even the UN needs to ask itself whether they are always fit for purpose. But I also keep hearing that people would actually like to meet here every time.

Question:

Is the city actually up to hosting more conferences and more staff? The housing market is virtually stagnant, there are times when the streets are gridlocked, and Deutsche Bahn has practically removed Bonn from the long-distance rail network.

Wadephul:

I’m not in Bonn all the time, of course, but I do have family who have lived here for a long time. And as foreign minister I can only say that I believe you are subjecting your city and its environs to an unnecessarily self-critical gaze.

Liminski:

(laughing) Sometimes you need a federal foreign minister to tell you that.

Wadephul:

The advantage I see in Bonn is that I have a city with options for hosting conferences, with an airport close by. The rail network could certainly be better connected, but I still think Bonn is easy to get to. Plus you are close to the Benelux countries and France here. All in all, that’s not to be underestimated.

Question:

If Bonn is to become established as a second seat of government, the supplementary agreement to the Bonn-Berlin Act, which is meant to govern the division of functions, will surely be pivotal. The urban development minister responsible, Verena Hubertz of the Social Democratic Party, wants to talk to the various ministries – but little has been heard on this for a while…

Liminski:

I want to say straight out that I would like to see a bit more urgency and alacrity from the federal government as a whole and from Verena Hubertz’s coordinating ministry in particular. This is, of course, a difficult time in financial terms. But, for one thing, the supplementary agreement is part of the coalition agreement and, for another, we have been doing our groundwork as a region and concentrating on projects that justify a federal interest – that is to say, that are of benefit to all of Germany. I will therefore now advocate in Berlin, alongside the parliamentary representatives, the mayor and the district commissioners, for getting the first of the flagship projects under way directly and then also making time to sign the supplementary agreement.

Question:

Is this not a case where the determined few should forge ahead alone?

Liminski:

It is in that spirit that I’ve been talking to various members of the federal government, not just Jo Wadephul. I was in the Beethoven House with Wolfram Weimer, the Commissioner for Culture, and he wants to give additional support to the Beethoven bicentenary next year. In April, I went to see Federal Minister of the Interior Alexander Dobrindt to promote the Bonn cyber campus. On his most recent visit, he pledged to use his role to strengthen Bonn as a resilience hub. I’ve also spoken to Federal Economic Affairs Minister Kathi Reiche. She is investing in her ministry’s location and concentrating the industrial security and SME-support portfolios at the Bonn site. So we are already getting lots of things done, but the formal Bonn-Berlin process does need an injection of energy. In the end, this is about the added value that Bonn can bring for all of Germany. And so we also expect commitment from the federal government.

Wadephul:

We know what we have in Bonn and we want to safeguard that. It shouldn’t be underestimated. Decentralisation is on everybody’s minds these days, as we need to be more resilient, better placed to respond in the event of conflicts or crises. That’s why it’s absolutely right to have a second centre of gravity alongside Berlin.

Question:

Speaking of crises and conflicts, after more than 100 days of war, the United States and Iran have come to a peace agreement. How optimistic are you that peace will hold?

Wadephul:

It’s been a difficult labour. And, as you know, it won’t be over once the memorandum of understanding has been signed as planned on Friday. The United States and Iran intend to engage in substantial negotiations, particularly regarding the Iranian nuclear programme. The objective of those talks is absolutely clear for Germany too: Iran must never have nuclear weapons. If it proves possible to settle one crisis, the Iran war, in the face of an extremely difficult global situation, we will be nothing but happy. Germany will do all we can to lend constructive support.

Question:

Will Germany and Europe remain on the sidelines in that process or actively exert some influence?

Wadephul:

While this is a conflict between the United States, Israel and Iran, we have been in touch with all parties to help foster understanding, including Iran. For example, we and the United States together have brought about a situation where Israel and Lebanon are in direct contact again for the first time in 50 years. We have a role to play, and we stand ready to help prevent a resurgence of hostilities.

Question:

What contribution will Germany make specifically?

Wadephul:

If the fighting has stopped for good and the neighbouring states, Iran and Oman, do not reject the idea, we can get involved, for instance, with the clearance of sea mines from the Strait of Hormuz – subject to the consent of the Bundestag, of course. Germany has a core interest in seeing lasting peace established.

Question:

Isn’t mine clearance a fairly modest contribution?

Wadephul:

No, it’s crucial. The danger to shipping lies in those mines. Eliminating them is fundamental to the safety of the sea route. The condition is that there must be no more firing.

Question:

Germany is seeking a greater international role. The campaign for a seat on the UN Security Council has failed for the time being. Why was there a lack of support?

Wadephul:

Germany started its campaign too late. Many governments had already decided to vote for smaller states. And, of course, there were also forces which did not want to see Germany gain in stature. Russia actively campaigned against us. But this isn’t the end of the world for us. We play an important role at the UN. Germany’s voice is listened to.

Liminski:

Under this federal government, we have not made ourselves everybody’s darling but have taken a clear line on the war in Ukraine and the situation in the Middle East. That doesn’t just win you friends on the world stage. But I prefer us to take clear positions rather than give up our principles for a place on the Security Council.

Question:

Will Germany stand for the Security Council again?

Wadephul:

We’ll have another go for 2035/36. I have complete confidence that Germany will be elected then.

Question:

You mentioned principles; what’s the view of the German Government on the Taliban government’s wish to send more representatives to Germany, including to the Consulate in Bonn?

Wadephul:

We will think very carefully about that. We will not change our view that there can be no question of recognising the Taliban government. We consider it to have seized power in Afghanistan unlawfully and we reject its politics, particularly with regard to the treatment of girls and women. On the other hand, we need to deal with the reality that the Taliban are in fact exercising power in Afghanistan. A minimum of technical ties therefore need to exist. I can’t just engage in foreign affairs with governments I find agreeable.

Question:

The main subject there is deportation flights, isn’t it?

Wadephul:

It is important to us to be able to deport criminals of Afghan origin and people who break our laws and don’t have an unlimited residence permit. That means we need contact to the government in Kabul, but we limit that to the essentials.

Liminski:

What mustn’t happen is that the Taliban use deportations as leverage against us. The circumstances surrounding the Afghan Consulate in Bonn are untenable. I was clear about that at the Federal Foreign Office. We like being an international hub in Bonn, but that doesn’t mean we have to put up with everything. Our rules apply here.

Question:

Nevertheless, the Taliban have a lever with which to get what they want. Is there a red line for what we will concede?

Wadephul:

I don’t want to discuss that question publicly. They don’t play with their cards on the table; we shouldn’t gift them any advantage. I’ve explained the underlying principles of our relations with the Taliban government.