Question:

Ms Baerbock, war in Ukraine, crisis in the Middle East, Donald Trump’s potential second term of office as US President, the rise of right-wing populists in Germany and Europe. How uneasy do you feel when you think about the state of the world today?

Annalena Baerbock:

There have certainly been easier times. And I can understand why some people just want to shut themselves away at home. But I believe that would be the worst thing we can do. We know from our own history that it is especially important to remain steadfast when freedom and democracy are under attack.

Question:

In Germany, hundreds of thousands of people have demonstrated against right-wing extremism during the last few weeks. How big is the threat facing German democracy?

Annalena Baerbock:

It’s not for nothing that our grandparents anchored the principles that underpin a robust democracy in the Basic Law. Their intention was to protect our liberal democratic order. To protect the dignity of each individual. That is our country’s soul. The fact that young and old are taking to the streets in every corner of our republic to protect it against right-wing extremists demonstrates the strength our liberal democracy and society. I’m grateful for that. It inspires me with confidence.

Question:

The streets are one thing, the polling booth another.

Annalena Baerbock:

That’s true. That’s why it’s so important to vote. If we want to be free, we need democracy just as much as we need air to breathe. And that includes putting our cross on the ballot paper on a regular basis. It’s fair to say that the Government doesn’t have the best image at the moment. But there are other democratic parties, although none of them are perfect either. That’s how it is in life. To be flippant: everyone needs a washing detergent. One is expensive and you don’t know what’s actually in the next one. The third one is ecological but doesn’t smell like it does in the ads and the tenth one doesn’t remove stains. Nevertheless, we opt for one of these detergents. Because otherwise our washing won’t smell very nice.

Question:

And for the Government that means that it has to argue less?

Annalena Baerbock:

At any rate, we have to go about things differently. Arguing about issues is part and parcel of a democracy, of every important decision. But it’s important that we don’t argue about these issues in a way that alienates people. At times, the coalition has appeared to regard arguments as an end in themselves. We have to stop that. Especially in an unsettling world, political leaders have to instil a sense of security and trust that we’ll find good solutions together and hold the country together in turbulent times.

Question:

How?

Annalena Baerbock:

By placing greater value once more on compromise and moving away from the idea that only one side can win or lose. That’s not possible anyway in a three-party coalition. Nor is it possible in turbulent times such as these where we are confronted with complex issues like the simultaneous modernisation, digitalisation and decarbonisation of our economy. There are simply no ready, perfect solutions. Compromise is the only way forward. And we shouldn’t always talk our wonderful country down. It’s obvious that not everything is going smoothly – I, too, despair as a mother sometimes when I see that schools don’t have enough funds. And I know how it is when a bus only comes twice a day in rural areas or when people have to wait for months to see a specialist in some places. At the same time, however, we’re one of the most prosperous countries in the world. Each and every one of us can benefit from social protection. And how lucky we are to live in peace and freedom in the heart of Europe. We should keep reminding ourselves of this instead of always finding fault with everything.

Question:

What will happen if Trump wins the presidential election at the end of this year and then, as he has threatened, takes the United States out of NATO?

Annalena Baerbock:

A man who disparages public institutions and international alliances, who believes that every election he doesn’t win is rigged, would of course pose great challenges for us. However, taking the outcome of the election in the United States for granted before it’s even taken place would be doing American democracy a disservice. And we are working with our European partners to strengthen Europe’s own defence capabilities. And that will benefit all NATO allies.

Question:

Against the backdrop of a possible withdrawal by the United States, does Germany have to be prepared to spend more than two percent of GDP on defence?

Annalena Baerbock:

Russia’s war of aggression against Ukraine is an attack on the European peace order. We as Europeans must be more self-reliant, regardless of developments in the United States. That’s why we’re expanding our own defence capabilities. At the same time, we need a genuine European Security and Defence Union in which, for example, individual national arms projects are better dovetailed at European level and in which we procure and produce more together.

Question:

Does this include a nuclear shield for Europe? Your predecessor Joschka Fischer has argued that the EU should have nuclear weapons at its disposal.

Annalena Baerbock:

Putin’s brutality has not only brought back the war of aggression to Europe but also destroyed all disarmament initiatives with Russia. That’s why nuclear sharing within NATO is an indispensable part of our security. We’re seeing at present how important the transatlantic defence alliance is, especially for Eastern Europe. That’s why the Bundeswehr is helping to strengthen NATO’s eastern flank.

Question:

In your opinion, how great is the danger that Russia will attack a NATO country?

Annalena Baerbock:

We can’t place hope in anyone who abducts children from Ukrainian schools and homes, puts them up for adoption in Russia and changes their names so that their mothers can never find them again, anyone who systematically tortures people in occupied eastern Ukraine, anyone who talks of having to rape Ukraine. For that very reason, we have to do everything we can to ensure that free Ukraine and not Russia wins this war and that it does not spread further. This also includes ensuring that the NATO deterrent remains credible. And that’s why it’s so vitally important that we don’t abandon Ukraine and that we continue supplying arms so that it can defend itself. I, too, wish that the war was finally over. However, halting our military support would only increase Putin’s imperial ambitions, his hunger for land. Thus, jeopardising our own security. Putin must finally withdraw his troops if we are to have the peace we all long for.

Question:

Does Germany have to make itself ready for war, as Defence Minister Boris Pistorius says?

Annalena Baerbock:

Of course, we have to enhance our defence capabilities. That’s not something I could have imagined having to say a few years ago. But Russia’s chauvinist imperialism has brought war back to Europe and we have to be able to defend ourselves. This includes supporting Ukraine. The war won’t end if this support ceases. Rather, peace in Europe would be further destroyed. It would be tantamount to submission in view of Russia’s war of aggression. Russia might feel emboldened.

Question:

Pistorius is also advancing the debate about the re-introduction of compulsory military service or a general obligation to serve society in some way. Would that make sense?

Annalena Baerbock:

Being able to defend ourselves doesn’t only mean having weapons systems that work. It also means that, if necessary, we’re in a better position to defend our peace. During past decades, we were very fortunate that this peace has never been directly in jeopardy and our Bundeswehr has only been deployed in international missions. Putin brutally shattered this European peace. This watershed moment therefore also means that it’s absolutely justified for the Defence Minister to look in depth at how we can guarantee the necessary troop numbers. But, as always, hasty decisions don’t help.

Question:

What do you mean by that?

Annalena Baerbock:

My esteemed colleague Boris Pistorius has rightly stressed that we can’t simply pour old wine into new wineskins. Compulsory military service only applied to men, but that wouldn’t be possible nowadays. The suspension of compulsory military service also led to staff shortages in the social sector because its counterpart, non-military national service, ended at the same time. These shortages are still causing problems in social care, in nurseries and in many other social sectors. This exciting debate within society concerns a number of options. For example, what incentives can be used to make voluntary work and the Bundeswehr more attractive. That ranges from financing to credits which shorten waiting times for a place in higher education. But young people shouldn’t be given the impression that they have to fill the gaps in all areas. After all, strengthening cohesion within our society is the concern of all generations.

Question:

You mean that older people should also have to do compulsory voluntary work?

Annalena Baerbock:

It doesn’t automatically have to be compulsory. Countless people want to contribute to our country in some way. And yes, many older people are now also playing their part. As reading mentors in schools, for example. I believe it’s worth considering how we can expand civic engagement further. Especially at a time when strengthening social cohesion is one of our most important tasks.

Question:

Let’s turn to Gaza. There are reports about a renewed attempt to exchange hostages and prisoners. How confident are you that this conflict can be resolved soon?

Annalena Baerbock:

Resolving this conflict is a huge task. However, we can alleviate the acute suffering, and we’re working on that around the clock. Even though we despair some days. We’re doing everything we can along with the United States, the UK and our Arab partners to finally bring about another humanitarian pause. So that the more than 120 hostages are finally released and, at the same time, the humanitarian disaster in Gaza is addressed. The terrorists’ cynical plan must not be allowed to succeed. The humanitarian pause is therefore the paramount priority. Nor have we given up working on prospects for a durable peace. After all, Israel will only be able to live in peace if Palestinians can live in security in their own state. And this own state can only exist if Israelis can finally live in security.

Question:

Israel’s Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu resoundingly rejects a two-state solution of this kind. How then can a solution be found?

Annalena Baerbock:

Israel’s security is part of Germany’s raison d’état because Jewish life was exterminated millions of times over by Nazi Germany. Germany therefore has a responsibility to remain steadfastly at Israel’s side and to stand up for its security. However, it has to be said that Israel will ultimately only have lasting security if the Palestinians are also able to live in security and dignity in their own state. To this end, both Israel and the Palestinians have to recognise that the security of the other side is vital to their own security. In my view, that can only work in a two-state solution. The good thing about democracies is that people can decide these major issues themselves at general elections.

Question:

A two-state solution cannot come about overnight. What is required on the path towards an agreement?

Annalena Baerbock:

Three elements are needed: security guarantees, administrative structures and reconstruction. We Germans in particular can contribute our own experiences. For we owe our own post-war democratic system to the international community. I’m convinced that international guarantees are needed to ensure that no more hate-filled terrorism emanates from Gaza. And people in Israel are safe. A genuine Palestinian administration needs to be developed. The reform of the Palestinian Authority will play a key role here. UNWRA, which currently has responsibility for things like education and healthcare in Gaza, would then no longer be needed. And, of course, the reconstruction of Gaza, which lies in ruins. What is needed is a kind of Marshall Plan for economic development. We now have to bring together all of these parts of the puzzle, in addition to countless others, such as rolling back the settlements, recognising the Palestinian state within a peace process, etc. The good thing is that we have like-minded partners for this. However, two vital factors are still missing. As long as the hostages are not free and the daily inhuman suffering of children and the civilian population does not ease, it will be difficult to break the Gordian knot, and nobody will be able to talk about the future. That’s why a new humanitarian pause is so essential.

Question:

What place in this process has the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East (UNRWA), which has been accused of having close links with the Hamas terrorist organisation? Some staff members have been dismissed due to their involvement in the massacre on 7 October.

Annalena Baerbock:

UNRWA is not an end in itself. Rather, it was created by the United Nations decades ago as a humanitarian relief organisation. The UNWRA structures in Gaza are also used by other UN agencies, for example UNICEF or the World Food Programme. They can’t really be replaced quickly at this time of intense warfare, partly because the other organisations there cannot actually provide assistance without security assurances from the Israeli army. But people need water, food and, above all, medicines. Severely injured children currently have to be operated on without anaesthetic due to the lack of medical supplies. As the second largest humanitarian donor in Gaza, we and our partners therefore made it clear to the United Nations that it has to take resolute action following these appalling incidents involving UNRWA staff so that this humanitarian assistance can continue, so that we can continue our payments.

Question:

What do you have to say about the announcements by Israeli Defence Minister Gallant that the Israel army will now advance on Rafah?

Annalena Baerbock:

I was shocked when I heard that. For some time now, I and our American partners have been making it clear to the Israeli Government that people in Gaza cannot disappear into thin air. Advancing on Rafah now, the last and most crowded place in the Gaza Strip, as announced by Israel’s Defence Minister, simply could not be justified. Many of the victims are women and children. Just imagine these were our children.

Question:

We saw that you were very moved by the speeches by the Holocaust survivor Eva Szepesi and the reporter Marcel Reif. What were you thinking?

Annalena Baerbock:

Please, please let everyone hear this actually quite simple message: “Be human!”. For the tragedy of inhumanity is that all too often the supposed “others” are no longer regarded as a human being. Time and again, people and societies come to a crossroads where they have to make a decision. In the case of Eva Szepesi, she noticed this when her friends were no longer allowed to play with her, simply because she was Jewish. Because in Germany at that time far too few said: no, she’s a human being, a 12-year-old child. Because the majority was not prepared to consider: what would I do if it was my child. The appeal by Eva Szepesi touched me so much because even today it is the most important question when it comes to bringing about peace. How much strength does a mother need to send away her 12-year-old child because that is the only way to save her daughter’s life. I asked myself what I would do as a mother. And I also ask this question during my talks in the Middle East: just imagine it was your child. Because if we’re prepared to see the suffering of others, to see our own child in the children of others, then we make different decisions. Then we have no choice but to be human.

Interview: Daniela Vates und Kristina Dunz