Question:

Commenting on his time as Foreign Minister, Joschka Fischer said the Ministry changes people faster than people change the Ministry. Does that hold true for you?

Johann Wadephul:

That’s not something I really focus on. I try to remain true to myself.

Question:

Reading your interviews before you took office, you can’t help but notice that you sound different.

Johann Wadephul:

Even before I took office, I wasn’t one for beating my own drum in Berlin. That’s why I wasn’t a frequent guest on the talk show circuit. My team sometimes got a bit annoyed about this. I never did.

Question:

You once accused your predecessor Annalena Baerbock of sinning against Israel by causing potential delays to weapons supplies. Then you were appointed Minister and took a clear stance on Israel’s methods of warfare. You have since changed your tune. Is this down to the job or your fellow party members?

Johann Wadephul:

It is down to the changing circumstances that we need to react to. Just before I took office, Israel launched a new policy in Gaza.

Question:

You mean the humanitarian blockade in Gaza.

Johann Wadephul:

That was a paradigm shift. We have now seen a reaction from Israel, one that I welcomed, even though it did not go far enough. However, I continue to call for humanitarian standards to be respected without restriction and deplore that this has not yet happened in full.

Question:

You had announced a review of arms supplies. There’s no word of that now.

Johann Wadephul:

These decisions are taken by the Federal Security Council which meets behind closed doors.

Question:

Supplying weapons is a political decision.

Johann Wadephul:

You don’t know what decisions have been taken.

Question:

You could go public with it now.

Johann Wadephul:

I have always said that we do in principle supply weapons to Israel. The previous Government did in fact reduce supplies, a step I considered to be wrong at the time. All governments since Konrad Adenauer have supplied weapons to Israel and this we are of course continuing. This German support is clearly rooted in our commitment to Israel’s right to exist. There can, nevertheless, be restrictions. As I said, these decisions are taken behind closed doors.

Question:

You’re not revealing any secrets if you indicate whether a review has taken place.

Johann Wadephul:

Each and every decision by the Federal Security Council is in essence a review.

Question:

But there is also a political level to this.

Johann Wadephul:

I’m not going to tell you anything more.

Question:

Has there been an image or an event in the course of recent months that ended up being some kind of tipping point for you personally?

Johann Wadephul:

It was a continuous development, unfortunately for the worse. That is why I have made plain from the outset that the situation of the people in Gaza has to improve. The Israeli Government has a duty to facilitate humanitarian assistance – not just in theory but in a way that effectively alleviates suffering. The Gaza Humanitarian Foundation, set up around the time of my first visit as Minister, falls short of the mark.

Question:

That is a private foundation run by the Americans and the Israelis to distribute aid in Gaza, a task it took over from international organisations. It has been criticised because of repeated cases of civilians being injured or killed at aid distribution points.

Johann Wadephul:

I told the Israeli Government that I expect the Foundation to be effective. When it became clear that it wasn’t, I voiced very strong criticism. Now Israel has changed its policy at least in part and is cooperating again with international organisations such as the World Food Programme. That is why the situation has improved somewhat in the Gaza Strip. However, we are clearly a long way from where we need to be, namely in a situation where all people in the Gaza Strip have got what they need to live.

Question:

So you see an improvement in the humanitarian situation in Gaza?

Johann Wadephul:

I see a certain development, however, it’s by far not enough. We are working to bring about a ceasefire between Israel and Hamas. This needs to pave the way for a return to full access to humanitarian supplies. After all, what triggered the restriction was the Israeli Government’s belief that Hamas was using aid to legitimise its own ends.

Question:

You are in frequent contact with your Israeli colleague Gideon Sa’ar. Do you manage to get your concerns across?

Johann Wadephul:

I do have the impression that I get through to him. It’s the outcome I’m not yet happy with. But what we have now achieved between the EU and the Israeli Government is a start.

Question:

You mean the agreement on opening bakeries, public kitchens and a water treatment plant?

Johann Wadephul:

Here I feel I was able to make an important contribution. And of course I am also talking to others in the region. To the Arab foreign ministers, above all to the Qatari Foreign Minister, who has close contacts to Hamas and can help ensure the ceasefire negotiations are successful this time.

Question:

Referring to your predecessor, you once said that there wasn’t much of a chance of Germany serving as mediator. Does that still hold true?

Johann Wadephul:

The role of neutral mediator does not work for the simple reason that we are not without bias. We stand by Israel’s side.

Question:

Does Germany even have clout in the Middle East?

Johann Wadephul:

Yes, of course. Many see us as the European power that can influence Israel. That is part of the reason why many Arab colleagues are in touch with me. At the same time, I also communicate certain pieces of information between the two sides. Our position is, however, always clear.

Question:

Do Arab partners understand Germany’s position? That Germany supplies weapons to Israel?

Johann Wadephul:

Not a single interlocutor has criticised that. However, there are calls for us to exert even more political pressure on Israel.

Question:

In an open letter, former German diplomats called upon the Federal Government to exert more influence on Israel.

Johann Wadephul:

I’m sure there are also diplomats in my Ministry now who agree. Then again, some prominent German media maintain that I am too critical of Israel. And among my European colleagues, I am in turn considered too pro-Israel. So all in all, I seem to be largely getting the balance right.

Question:

Some countries accuse Germany of double standards. Is Germany becoming increasingly isolated on the international stage?

Johann Wadephul:

On the contrary, the whole world wants to talk to us and have us as partners. It is, however, right that clear words in all directions are sometimes necessary to maintain the credibility of German foreign policy. That holds true, for example, when it comes to the situation in the Gaza Strip and that is why I’m saying what I’m saying.

Question:

We’ve just seen the foreign ministers of 28 countries, including Britain and France, call for an end to the war in Gaza. Berlin didn’t sign. The Netherlands has changed its policy towards Israel, Germany is standing its ground. Is there a political price to pay?

Johann Wadephul:

I don’t believe in such categories. Germany has a never-ending responsibility towards the Jewish state. No other nation killed millions in industrial fashion. No one can expect us to abandon Israel, threatened as it is by Iran, by Houthis, by Hezbollah, by Hamas! Above all else, however, Hamas must not be allowed to succeed in its perfidious game of using both the hostages and the Palestinian population in Gaza as bargaining chips. Israel has accepted the mediators’ most recent proposal. I urge Hamas and all those who have contact with this organisation and can bring their influence to bear to finally clear the way for a ceasefire.

Question:

Does this responsibility not also entail preventing the Israeli Government from making mistakes?

Johann Wadephul:

Yes, of course, and that is what I do. The day the declaration you mentioned was published, I spoke to the Israeli Foreign Minister myself straightaway. That is the form of communication I consider appropriate between colleagues, especially between our two countries. At the same time, my admonitions regarding the situation in Gaza mean I am in part the target of very harsh criticism. You can end up in the crossfire in a liberal country and that’s where I am. That sometimes keeps me awake at night.

Question:

Your fellow party members certainly haven’t minced their words: “foreign policy hara-kiri”, “ticking time bomb” is what they said about you, anonymously of course, when you criticised Israel.

Johann Wadephul:

Many, also in the CDU/CSU parliamentary group, voice staunch support. Many people are reaching out. In my constituency, I get a lot of backing from neighbours, friends and acquaintances.

Question:

What is important for the people in your constituency? Israel or Ukraine?

Johann Wadephul:

Often it doesn’t come down to specific issues. What they want is a calm, down-to-earth foreign minister. They say they don’t understand much about the individual topics, but that I’m doing a good job. That I should stay true to myself. And that’s what I’m going to do.

Question:

Do you sense that the war in the Middle East is pushing Ukraine out of the spotlight?

Johann Wadephul:

The risk is definitely there. Putin is using this for particularly fierce attacks and for a whole spectrum of attempts to divide society in Germany.

Question:

What are you doing about it?

Johann Wadephul:

By visiting Kyiv and Odesa, I tried to keep the focus on Ukraine. After all, this war in Europe, this war against our European values, remains the greatest foreign policy challenge we face. However, it is not easy to keep this at the forefront of public attention.

Question:

Two days after you left, the port in Odesa that you visited was attacked. That was surely no coincidence.

Johann Wadephul:

I have stopped trying to understand the logic behind Putin’s attacks. He will not stop until he realises that he has miscalculated.

Question:

And how long is that going to take?

Johann Wadephul:

We are currently in a critical phase once more in which Putin is again testing us to see if he can use continuous heavy attacks to get his way. If we as Europeans and Germans stand our ground, he will realise that his strategy doesn’t add up.

Question:

One problem is the financing. Russian foreign assets are valued at some 300 billion euro. How about seizing those?

Johann Wadephul:

That is very difficult as legal and financial policy aspects are at play.

Question:

Time is running out for Ukraine.

Johann Wadephul:

The problem with equipping Ukraine with new weapons systems is currently not a financial one but a problem of availability and production. That is the bottleneck and that is what we are working on.

Question:

In days gone by, you attacked the Scholz Government for failing to supply Taurus cruise missiles. Now the Christian Democrats are in power and the weapons system still isn’t being delivered.

Johann Wadephul:

For a long time, I’ve been somewhat reticent here.

Question:

Why?

Johann Wadephul:

It is not a technically straightforward weapons system that Ukraine can use straightaway. This is nevertheless something we need to keep revisiting.

Question:

So you can understand the position of former Chancellor Scholz after all?

Johann Wadephul:

What is clear is that Ukraine has the right to defend itself from attack. Ukraine will also have the means to impact Russian territory. But we aren’t going to reveal to Putin in this interview what weapons systems we are making available to Ukraine.

Question:

Your predecessor Annalena Baerbock brought climate policy to the Federal Foreign Office, along with feminist foreign policy, the China Strategy, the National Security Strategy. Are these projects you also support?

Johann Wadephul:

My three main priorities are security, freedom, ensuring prosperity. These are principles that make plain what we need to focus on. I simply have different priorities. However, that doesn’t mean we have to do everything differently. When it comes to policy on China, there is considerable continuity. The same holds true for the National Security Strategy. Climate policy has in part moved back to the Environment Ministry but some aspects I am pursuing at international level.

Question:

What do you want to do differently?

Johann Wadephul:

One example: foreign policy should safeguard economic prosperity in Germany and Europe. Unlike Annalena Baerbock, I take business delegations with me on my trips to establish and enhance economic relations. I want to ensure that we can source raw materials and rare earths that we urgently need from countries with which we cooperate.

Question:

That sounds like “change through trade” reloaded.

Johann Wadephul:

I am not so idealistic as to think that the minute I trade with a country I can change it. Sometimes trade is just trade. But for Germany, one of the world’s leading export nations, even that can be useful.

Interview: Alice Bota