Question

Minister, is it still possible to be a transatlanticist these days?

Johann Wadephul

You have to be a transatlanticist.

Question

Have to be?

Johann Wadephul

It is in the interest of Europe but also of the United States of America and incidentally also Canada that our Alliance lives on. It has guaranteed peace and stability for decades.

Question

Is the guarantee not null and void now that we have a US President who has so little time for Europe?

Johann Wadephul

Thinking in institutional or alliance categories is perhaps less instinctive for President Trump. He doesn’t do what we have come to expect over the decades. However, apart from a comment right at the start of his first term in office, he has not actually called the Alliance into question, whether directly or in an aside. The United States of America stands by its obligations. We should all be careful and refrain from voicing self-fulfilling prophecies. My advice is to talk about what we share.

Question

And what would that be?

Johann Wadephul

Interests and values. These we share.

Question

So you aren’t worried about democratic rule of law in the United States?

Johann Wadephul

Of course there are also developments that we view critically. However, the same holds true in a couple of European countries. As Europeans we have no reason to strut around as if we were all star pupils through and through. The United States is a much, much older democracy and a much older state based on the rule of law. We Germans, in particular, have every reason to show restraint and remain modest.

Question

Even as we watch Trump’s battle against universities such as Harvard unfold?

Johann Wadephul

To be honest I myself do not always understand every single statement of his or absolutely everything he calls for. The conclusion I draw is that we need to talk to each other much more and talk through things much more. And above all we need to look at what exactly this means for Germans studying there.

Question

When talking to Europe, Trump’s favourite topic is money.

Johann Wadephul

The United States has a point when it calls for us to shoulder more responsibility and more of the financial burden. The Alliance does not just live from grand declarations but also from actions. Members have to make a significant contribution to defence capabilities. And this contribution is at the end of the day first and foremost money to buy military equipment and to finance personnel. We have some catching up to do on both fronts. In the coalition we are clear in our political readiness to engage here – and following the amendment to our Constitution, we are now in a position to remedy shortcomings.

Question

The aim is five percent of economic output for defence. Is that workable in a coalition with the SPD?

Johann Wadephul

Germany is ready to adopt this aim. The coalition sees eye to eye here. After the statements by the Federal Chancellor, the Defence Minister and by me, this is clear. Of course we need to adopt the necessary decisions in the Cabinet and in Parliament. However, the coalition agreement clearly states that we will implement the decisions taken at the NATO Summit in the Hague in June. I myself am in no doubt that we will then adopt the astute proposal presented by Secretary General Mark Rutte to spend 3.5 percent on the defence sector by 2032 plus 1.5 percent on defence-related infrastructure.

Question

What happens if the Summit fails?

Johann Wadephul

That would lead to uncertainties that we cannot afford.

Question

Is NATO itself at stake?

Johann Wadephul

That is too hypothetical for my taste and distracts from the matter at hand. However, based on my talks with colleagues from NATO countries, I can say that everyone has thankfully realised what it is actually about.

Question

We’re talking about huge amounts of money. Can you explain this to people?

Johann Wadephul

That is our job. It’s a responsibility that I have as a politician and one I cannot shirk. Russia is threatening us. We know that Russia has switched to a war economy. We know that China is engaging in massive rearmament and we know that the arms trade is thriving in regions hit by terrorism, especially in Africa. We are seeing that terrorist groups such as the Houthis can almost completely paralyse shipping routes such as the Suez Canal or the Red Sea. We need to defend ourselves against all this and – better still – make sure we are prepared for every eventuality.

Question

Do we need a Plan B in case the United States withdraws more or indeed completely from NATO? In concrete terms, do we need a European nuclear shield?

Johann Wadephul

Every new Bundeswehr tank, now feeding into NATO, is at the same time a contribution to European defence capabilities. However, I have to say clearly that certainly in the foreseeable future it will not be possible to replace the US nuclear shield. Nevertheless, as far as nuclear issues are concerned, a new culture of dialogue has emerged. Friedrich Merz has signalled that he is open-minded about this debate launched by Emmanuel Macron. So we are talking to France and Britain about these issues.

Question

Turning to the Russian war of aggression, the aim not all that long ago was that Ukraine had to win. What is the aim today?

Johann Wadephul

For me, it was clear from the outset that it will most likely be a negotiated solution that will end this war. After all, there is no denying that utter defeat in the form of capitulation was never really on the cards for Russia with its nuclear arsenal. So, the approach we are taking now is somewhat more honest. Ukraine is at the same time defending itself successfully against Russia’s aggression. This means Ukraine has every chance to use its strong negotiating position for a strong outcome. For us it is important that it is Ukraine itself that takes this decision rather than the decision being taken by others over the country’s head.

Question

After your trip to Washington, do you really believe that Trump will join ranks with the Europeans and increase the pressure on Putin with new sanctions?

Johann Wadephul

US Senator Lindsey Graham is finalising the sanctions package that has 80 co-sponsors in the Senate with Trump’s approval. He himself has announced sanctions on several occasions and has now expressed his annoyance about Putin. I cannot imagine that he will leave it at that.

Question

How long would Ukraine manage without American support?

Johann Wadephul

That would need to and indeed would once again create new momentum in Europe. But we should not overestimate Russia’s war machinery. After all, Russia has been trying for three years now to achieve a goal Putin wanted to tick off in just a few days. At the outset, he wanted to take Kyiv and then the whole of Ukraine. Despite immense losses, Putin’s army is not making inroads.

Question

Looking at the acts of sabotage and cyberattacks – is Germany actually in the throes of a hybrid war with Russia?

Johann Wadephul

I would avoid the term war but we are no longer in a clear peace situation. We need to find new ways of dealing with this. That also means that we need to look very carefully at the legal foundations.

Question

What do you mean?

Johann Wadephul

I mean, for example, how do we deal with the situation if drones fly over military facilities or if critical infrastructure such as data cables or power lines are destroyed outside German territory? This is far from clear. Are we allowed to take steps, are we allowed to defend against such attacks? These questions need to be resolved. After all, we do need to be able to defend ourselves comprehensively. Some of the tasks emerging are completely new. That is one of the main reasons why we want to set up a National Security Council.

Question

Your predecessor Annalena Baerbock took considerable criticism from the CDU/CSU when she denounced Israel’s methods of warfare in Gaza. Looking back, do you not need to admit she was right?

Johann Wadephul

You have to judge things as they were at the time. I was among those who criticised Annalena Baerbock and still believe that my criticism was justified at the time. Today, I can see that some actions of the Israeli Government need to be criticised and this criticism is being voiced. The Federal Chancellor and myself have clearly stated our opinion on a couple of things.

Question

But the dramatic situation in Gaza is not exactly new. What has changed?

Johann Wadephul

For weeks, humanitarian assistance has not been able to get through. During my first official visit to Israel as Minister, I called upon Israel to remedy the situation on behalf of the entire Federal Government. I was even prepared to accept the new distribution system as a pragmatic way of resolving the crisis. However, some three weeks on, I have to admit that it is not working. The aid that is getting through is just a drop in the bucket. But what we are talking about here are fundamental human rights. It is the ill, the weak and the young who are dying first. As a result, we have changed our language and the next step will probably be to change our political action.

Question

How?

Johann Wadephul

I can’t spell out the details at this stage. The Israeli Government has the chance first of all to change its policy.

Question

But is the question of weapons supplies on the table?

Johann Wadephul

We cannot provide details on such matters as they are dealt with in the Federal Security Council. The principle is that Israel receives weapons from Germany. This has always been the case. Israel is exposed to a range of serious threats to its security and its existence – whether from the Houthis, from Hezbollah or from Iran. Israel has to be able to defend itself against such threats, also using German weapons systems. A different question is whether what is happening in the Gaza Strip is reconcilable with international humanitarian law. We are currently examining this and future decisions to authorise further weapons supplies will depend on the outcome.

Question

Or perhaps not to authorise?

Johann Wadephul

That is what that sentence means.

Question

In future, will Germany more often join ranks in the EU and the UN when Israel is being criticised?

Johann Wadephul

It depends what is up for debate. For me there is no question that we have a special responsibility to stand at Israel’s side.

Question

So, Israel’s security remains part of Germany’s raison d’état?

Johann Wadephul

Yes, we champion the interests of the State of Israel which is the only homeland for Jews, where they can feel safe in their own state. However, that does not mean that a government can do whatever it wants.

Interview conducted by Daniel Brössler, Claudia Henzler, Sebastian Strauß